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Post by Sebastian on Aug 3, 2015 9:06:44 GMT -5
Are free will and God compatible ideas?
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Post by Sebastian on Aug 3, 2015 9:10:22 GMT -5
I contend that God created man with free will and souls. If eternal damnation exists, this is a coercive force intended by God to manipulate our free will. Therefore, there is no eternal damnation, and we are free to choose right and wrong on our own.
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Clyde
Bird
Voluntaryist
Posts: 23 
Current Political Identity: Libertarian Voluntaryist
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Post by Clyde on Aug 3, 2015 11:09:28 GMT -5
What I am writing here, is not only the response of Sebastian's point, but a summary of my thoughts on the discussion that we had on GroupMe. The question is "Is a God who uses eternal damnation as punishment compatible with libertarianism?". I say yes. Before I start answering the question, let me state what I believe in terms of truth, good and evil. In order to differentiate between good and evil, one must accept there is absolute or objective truth. What do I mean by that? You cannot claim Murdering an innocent person is evil, and reject absolute truth. If you reject objective truth, how do you know your statement is true? In other words, if you do not accept objective truth, your arguments are self-defeating. Now, are we able to determine what these absolute truths are? In some cases, using logic leads us to the correct answer; in other cases, not so much.
What is truth? Is truth our perception of reality, or it is independent of our perception? I think it is independent of our perception. One may believe Caitlyn Jenner is an one-year old asian baby, but that is not truth. So truth is what it is. In other words, A is A (Hello Ayn Rand fans!).
Now, how is this all related to God? Well, we cannot prove God exists with 100% certainty using rigorous logic. Similarly, we cannot prove God doesn't exist with 100% certainty. However, one of the following statements 1.God exists. and 2. God does not exist. must be objectively true. Either God exists or He does not. If one believes God does not exist, he/she is making a truth claim and is implicitly accepting the existence of objective truth. Whether God exists or not was not the point of the discussion so I will leave it alone for now. If God does not exist, the rest of my discussion is pointless.
Let's say God exists and this is objective truth. By definition, God is perfect. He is the omnipotent being who created everything in existence. By definition, He also knows it all. Thus, God knows what is objectively true. Furthermore, He defines perfection, good, evil and everything else. Therefore, everything God does is good.
After my extended parenthesis, let's get to the topic of the original discussion. Is God libertarian, or more specifically is the God of the Bible libertarian? In my understanding, absolutely yes. God is the omnipotent being who created men and gave him freedom to make its own choices. Why did God allow men to make his own choices despite knowing man would choose evil? Because it is impossible to love without freedom. If you are not the one choosing your actions you cannot love. By love I don't mean the tingling feeling one gets on the stomach (or anywhere else). I understand love as being there for your fellow human beings, wanting for them what you want for yourself in terms of happiness and fulfillment, and helping them achieve it. In other words, serving your neighbor by your choice in absence of coercion. You can't do what I mentioned before if you are not free. Since we can choose between good and evil, and God does not dictate our choices, we are free. However, this does not mean our choices don't have any consequences. Everyone has the choice to kill innocent people, but most humans believe murder is wrong, and in my understanding God considers murder evil. The fact that God punishes evil choices and actions does not make God anti-libertarian. Is God anti-libertarian if He punishes people who take away freedom from innocent people? Is God anti-libertarian if he eternally damns Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc? I don't think so. Hence, eternal damnation by itself does not mean God is against freedom. It simply means God punishes you if you use your freedom for evil.
Looking forward to hear from you guys.
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Clyde
Bird
Voluntaryist
Posts: 23
Current Political Identity: Libertarian Voluntaryist
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Post by Clyde on Aug 3, 2015 11:29:23 GMT -5
Sebastian, to respond directly to your point, just because there are consequences for one's actions does not mean you are not free to choose such actions. I know this may sound as absurd and simplistic, but consider the following case. Would you say God took away our freedom to jump from tall buildings, because he implements gravity as coercion to dictate our choice? Or, if I tell someone: "If you kill my son, I will kill you and your family.", am I taking away any of his freedom? My point is, if you violate certain principles, there are consequences. Eternal damnation is not initiation of force. Instead, it is a response to the "violence" a human initiated against God (or fellow humans) . Since God gets to decide what constitutes evil, we can't argue with that. All we can do as humans, is try to understand what is good and what is evil in the eyes of God.
Having said that, afterlife or eternity is one of the questions which torment me the most. There is absolutely no logical way to reason about it other than Pascal's wager. Yet, Pascal's wager does nothing to assess the truth regarding afterlife. At most, it provides advice on how you should choose your beliefs regarding eternity. I don't know whether eternal damnation exists or not, but, if it exists I don't necessarily see it as incompatible with free will.
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Post by Sebastian on Aug 3, 2015 12:35:10 GMT -5
Great post Clyde. I certainly agree with the vast majority of what you say, but I'd like to delve a little deeper on one or two points.
You state that God's punishment is consistent with libertarian ideas because it is a consequence of a free choice. I agree with this. But is there any action by a human that warrants eternal punishment? Most libertarians think that punishments should not greatly exceed the scopes of their crime. For example, if I steal your lunch, sentencing me to life in prison is immoral. This unjust retribution violates my freedoms in a way that most people would find incompatible with the NAP. If a person commits murder, God can certainly punish him for his actions. But I would view eternal damnation as an excessive punishment for any crime.
Eternal punishment does not seem congruous with the NAP because it is a punishment which outstrips the crime. I would say that eternal damnation is therefore not a quality of a libertarian God, and most certainly not the quality of a forgiving God. The forgiving God of the New Testament would not condemn for eternity, but that discussion is probably outside the scope of our libertarian debate.
Look forward to hearing what you have to say on this. P.S., I might cite your post in future arguments I have with people. It was very good.
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Clyde
Bird
Voluntaryist
Posts: 23
Current Political Identity: Libertarian Voluntaryist
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Post by Clyde on Aug 3, 2015 15:24:20 GMT -5
Sebastian, that is a great point. Now, we are talking about the severity of punishment and the nature of afterlife. In this topic my beliefs go astray from the beliefs of most Christians. Your first question: is there any action that warrants eternal punishment? This depends on the nature of the punishment. If you steal my lunch, and I imprison you for life, I am certainly violating the NAP because the punishment is too cruel. However, if I don't allow you to be my friend anymore, I would be an asshole, yet I would not be violating the NAP. As a Christian, I see God's eternal punishment in this light. Granted I know nothing about the afterlife, all my assessments are based on my (limited) understanding of God's nature. Before continuing, let me sum up my interpretation of the Bible and Christianity. The Bible claims we are all sinners and we deserve nothing. If we get to heaven, it is because the grace of God displayed through the death of Christ in the cross. In other words, God owes us nothing. Yet, from a libertarian perspective if God puts you eternally on fire for stealing my lunch, that seems like a violation of the NAP. At this point it may seem eternal punishment and libertarianism are incompatible. The only problem with this line of reasoning is that we don't know what eternal punishment is. What if eternal punishment is being separated from God for eternity? If God does not let you into his Kingdom (property rights), is He violating the NAP? God is not grabbing you and throwing you into hell; instead, He is closing the door of His house and not letting you in the house. He is not putting you in prison, but he is not helping you escape.
I would certainly agree eternal punishment does not seem compatible with a libertarian and forgiving God; however, in my understanding of Christianity, God will open the doors if one repents of his/her sins. Going back to the analogy of you stealing my lunch, if I were to imitate God, I should forgive you and let you be my friend. It looks exactly like what Jesus does.
Having said that, I don't think heaven, hell, eternity, becoming a Christian, being forgiven are simple concepts as the majority of Christians interpret them to be. I doubt afterlife is as follows: You are a Christian, then you go to heaven; you are not a Christian, then you go to hell. I think a perfect God would come up with a much more sophisticated system.
To sum up, I am not claiming eternal damnation exists. Nonetheless, if it did, it could be compatible with libertarianism.
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